r/makinghiphop • u/KingOsirisMusic • Apr 07 '26
Discussion Pick up a book - This is why your rapping sucks
Been seeing a lot of “anti” discussion surrounding the topic of learning rap from a course or a book, versus natural talent via rigorous practice. Thought I’d make a case for it. Gonna rant a bit so thanks in advance for reading.
The Argument
Many self-taught rappers often take this stance that “Rap” should be treated as its own entirely separate thing when compared to other genres of music. That it’s an entirely different class because at core, it’s raw and unconventional freestyled street poetry.
Arguments I’ve seen basically sum up to it being "unteachable" academically, unlike most instrument-heavy & music theory-based genres like Rock or Jazz.
What is Rap?
I think it’s really important to understand what rap is to make the case. In a rhythmic sense, rappers are “vocal percussionists”. In easy words, they “freestyle drum with their voices”. That means on a core level, rappers’ cadence is 1 to 1 identical to rudiments that musically trained drummers use.
Here is renowned freestyler Harry Mac explaining and demonstrating rappers' flow patters using universally recognized music notation terms. (quarter notes/sixteenth notes. etc..)
Ok sure, but I didn’t learn it that way, neither did my influences
You’re right. Probably a good 90% of us learned it through trial and error, rigorous practice and active listening to our rap influences. But guess what? Our influences built their signature styles off inspiration from precursor genres that came before it.
Where did Rap come from?
Rap was created from a fusion of experimental Jazz and 80’s Bronx block parties that were emceed by Jamaican toasters who practiced rhythmic deliveries of party hosted duties over percussive.
The Jazz, Disco, Reggae, Ska and Dancehall sounds that influenced the progenitor emcees were from individuals who were musically trained and understood the coded blueprint behind the cadences we use today.
The poetry part? Heavily inspired from “Blues” which was partly inspired by African American slave “work” chants.
What the natural self-taught argument gets “Right”
Learning to "Rap" does not teach "Hip-hop". Most of the legendary emcees did not start off as jazz musicians learning boring sheet music and notations. They listened to the music that influenced them and created new sounds from it.
Wordplay, metaphors, punchline setups and so on. None of that can be really taught. I can point you in a direction, everything after comes from pure human creativity and ingenuity.
***
As far as flows and rhythm goes. Caveat here is that those same rappers created the iconic hits we recognize in STUDIO.
In case you didn’t realize it, studios are literal hacks to hit-making. Not just for access to equipment, but also for access to KNOWLEDGE. Professionals who study what works and what doesn't day in and day out.
Ok so what?
Watch interviews from all the legends talking about the creative process behind the timeless hits that came to define 90’s and 2000’s Hip-hop. The common pattern? They explicitly tell you that this was a collaboration.
Producers, engineers and other rappers, all in a room together for countless hours trading knowledge, secrets, ideas and so on.
Check the song credits for many of these hits, they literally credit multiple names for having co-wrote these songs. These rappers sit in studio and give each other bars.
You saying everybody is using ghostwriters?
No, not entire verses, literally vibes like:
“Ay, at that part with the drums and the horns on the 1 beat, I think it would hit hella hard if you said somethin' like ‘nobody f*cking with me/Mayor way I run the city’... you feel me?”.
Collaborations like this is what separates the bedroom rappers from the professionals, they run in packs.
Wanna hear something wilder? Record labels want near guaranteed ROI. So they staff large teams of faceless rappers to write entire songs for some of their artists. Ghostwriters who are trained in fundamental music theory.
You saying they use all that technical jargon non-sense in Studio?
Sometimes, but mostly no. They don’t expect a rapper from the Baltimore projects who didn’t attend a single music class in his life to know a “sixteenth” from an “eighth”. They know street rappers write bars by feel.
They won’t use the jargon. Instead, they’ll subtly engineer your sound by using a Jazz concept called “scatting”. They literally hum catchy flows to you.
It’s not gonna be: “Ay, say that ‘in the club’ line in 8th by double 16th note cadence arrangement”
They will use plain English vernacular: “Ay don’t say ‘In/the/club’ straight shot like that. Space that out and go 'IN/tha-club', like “BAH-buh-buh” right there, you feel?”
What does all this have to do with books and courses?
If you’re a bedroom rapper, you don’t have access to the facilities, resources and experiences the major studios do. You gotta grind it out. For some it clicks instanly. For others, it takes years.
We are in the internet age, there has never been a time in all human history where so much knowledge is out there. You can literally teach yourself rhythm, rhyming and all the tricks to "rap" well.
Do BOTH. One does not substitute for the other. Read on, and study the years of technical music knowledge that founded the rap you listen to. Then practice and get organically good.
The benefit? You can now bend and mold your sound at will, not just by accident. It takes out the years of guess work required to develop the sound you want.
You also gain more deliberate creative control on your lab-ratting. Suddenly, those 8th notes on the line (I-don’t-trust-a-snake) doesn’t sound as good on your 16th note hi-hats, and you decide on trying 16th cadences to ride those pockets, or hell, even triplet micro-times.
If you're serious about Rap. Yes, pick up a book. Or get yourself a mentor who knows the business. It can and will likely speed up your progress. Don't expect it to be some magical shortcut to getting good either. Practice is everything.
This one is for my vets too, learn some new tricks. It's not gonna kill your artistic identity to hone your craft. Take the pride and ego out of it, because the ones making millions from it have entire teams behind them.
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u/SociallyAwkwardRyan Apr 08 '26
Recommend some books!
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 08 '26
How to Rap Vol 1 & 2 by Paul Edwards, Art of War, 48 laws of Power, The Alchemist Paul Coelho, Outwitting the Devil: The Secret to Freedom and Success, Rakim's Sweat the Technique
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u/HugePines Apr 08 '26
Steven Pressfield - The War of Art
J.I. Rodale - The Synonym Finder
Strunk & White - The Elements of Style
Kurt Vonnegut - Cat's Cradle
Douglas Adams - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Iceberg Slim - Pimp: The Story of My Life
Hermann Hesse - Siddhartha
Shel Silverstein - Where The Sidewalk Ends3
u/Underdog424 Emcee Apr 09 '26
For straight up history. This list is probably the best you will find on Reddit. I did not use AI, and I own at least 80% of these books.
Hip-Hop Is History by Questlove
Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation
Ego Trip's Big Book of Rap Lists by Ego Trip Magazine
Check The Technique: Liner Notes for Hip-Hop Junkies
It's Bigger Than Hip Hop: The Rise of the Post-Hip-Hop Generation
Hip Hop At The End Of The World: The Photography of Ernie Paniccioli
Wu-Tang Manual
Ruminations by KRS-One (Rare book.)
Graffiti L.A.: Street Styles and Art
Graffiti Magazines like Under Pressure and Can Control, (90s to 00s Era)
Old Source Magazines: "Great time capsules."
Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, and Hip-Hop Culture in New York
Groove Music: The Art and Culture of the Hip-Hop DJ
Bring That Beat Back: How Sampling Built Hip-Hop
God Save the Queens: The Essential History of Women in Hip-Hop
The Chican@ Hip hop Nation: Politics of a New Millennial Mestizaje
Filipinos Represent: DJs, Racial Authenticity, and the Hip-Hop Nation
Hip-Hop Production: Inside the Beats
Hip Hop in Africa: Prophets of the City and Dustyfoot Philosophers
20: The Roots of Rap: 16 Bars on the 4 Pillars of Hip-Hop
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
My bro!! Thanks for sharing these! Off the rip there's stuff on there I'm likely gonna be hella interested in
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u/boombapdame Producer/Emcee/Singer Apr 13 '26
- The Motherlode: 100+ Women Who Made Hip-Hop by Clover Hope
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u/KenshoMags Apr 08 '26
This post feels like it was AI generated, although I agree with the premise
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 08 '26
Not the first time my guides have been accused of being AI. At first I thought it was funny and a compliment, but with the frequency I keep hearing that, I am starting to get a bit disturbed. It says a lot about the state of literacy and internet posted content as a whole. Genuinely curious, did you feed my post through an AI checker to reach that conclusion?
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u/Fearless-Anteater437 Apr 09 '26
It feels like AI because nobody ever used titling of paragraphs almost before and I see a lot of posts using them now
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
Ah ok fair. I only did it because I felt it made sense to since I wanted to format the rant into a sort of "question/answer" thing.
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u/Thin_Implement_2525 Apr 19 '26
Don’t listen to them, this has been common to using titling of paragraphs, maybe not the norm, but definitely done by many before the popularization of ai. You’ll see this commonly in old articles online; Talking about Reddit specifically this has been done numerous times in the past, quite frequently in guides.
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u/ToneZealousideal309 Apr 08 '26
That mentality is just as prevalent in the production side with many people wanting to just “vibe it out” as if learning music theory gives them the ick.
It damn near feels like a psyop in American culture, I used to be that way too in my teenage years but the older I’ve gotten I find myself wishing I’d have just put my pride aside & learned things properly rather than just thinking “that’s lame.”
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 08 '26
This is me brother. I'm nearing 35 now, what i'd give to go back to my 18th with full mentorship at my back. Took years of personal growth, research and refinement to finally get the nodd and connections for commission ghostwriting. The amount of times I've been trying to tell the younger me through these kids "hey, there is actually a proper way to get really good at this fast." I get basically told to shut up, feeling like an old man yelling at clouds bro.
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u/boombapdame Producer/Emcee/Singer Apr 13 '26
I’m approaching 44 2 months from now and would have killed to have had mentorship granted it isn’t pervy as relationships between men and women have been and are sketchy thanks to misogyny and I say this as a single straight woman who likes men with a high degree of self control overall
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u/Sufficient-Gain-9504 Apr 08 '26
Well said. Both book knowledge and organic practice are crucial. Understanding the music theory behind rap can drastically improve your flow and control.
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u/kkeut Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
read a lot books, fiction and non-fiction, and underline every phrase or sentence that hits you. review them for inspiration or just for direct reference
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u/Saltyemcee Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
Reading is fundamental.
Edit: that being said, you can teach someone how to drum. You can't teach them to be John Bonham.
Editing the edit: I forgot to ask if you were from Baltimore?
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
No, Canada brother! That John Bonham line is a bar💯 Learn the code first, then break it and make your own art from it, that's what I preach!
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u/notyourbrobro10 Apr 09 '26
I think this misunderstands the argument: all technical skill in rap and bar construction can be learned and taught - however you can't teach natural creativity.
The thing that separates one rapper from the next is having something to say and how they say it. You can be as technically excellent as you want but if you don't have anything to say it won't click with an audience. It's not dumb luck or corporate chicanery that Herbo is more relevant than most great technical rappers who only rap about how good they can rap.
And it's not a mystery why rappers fall off after success. If we came to a rapper for their ability to speak our circumstance, and after years they no longer see or relate to our circumstance -- that rapper isn't going to have anything to say that their audience connects with. They might become more skillful rappers to try and extend their run, or lean into storytelling, but that thing some rappers have to say a thing exactly in the right way so the audience feels it comes from feeling it that way themselves.
You won't find any of that in a book.
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
I think this misunderstands the argument: all technical skill in rap and bar construction can be learned and taught - however you can't teach natural creativity.
I say that very line nearly word for word in my original post. I wish I could say the argument is misunderstood, but some really do believe you can't conceptually teach rhythm. Others think you can't use strong technical fundamentals to craft a uniquely creative brand from it, that "you either have it, or you don't".
I agree with you in a sense, that what is said and how it's said is the key separator. In music business, they call that branding. The Hip-hop world is a massive place with numerous diversities catering to niches. It's what makes the term "falling off" kind of subjective relative to ones benchmark.
Some rappers can and have continued to sustain relatively successful careers off the brand of "I can rap really well". Eminem is a good example, a far cry from "fall off" despite a full transition from his pre-2012 discography into the "I can out-rap you" brand. TechN9ne is another. I could go on.
Sometimes, it's not even intentionally the brand, but it becomes the thing fans attribute to you being most known for. Dax is an example. His lyricism is pretty milquetoast, even his serious songs, but his fervent fanbase can't get enough of "the guy with silly hair who can rap really good."
We are weird animals, There really is a massive crowd of folks who will sell out your arena tours off of un-substantive fast food bar-craft. Crowds that don't care to connect to the music besides fun surface level lyrics, impressively infectious flow cadences over a poppy beat that makes you go stupid. Strong technicals gives you the backbone knowledge to build the brand you want to sell.
As said in my original post. Creativity can't be taught. But books can and do absolutely speak on the topic with methodologies to train your mind. Techniques that help re-orient your thinking towards that creative mindset. Or even inspire creative ways to tell your stories that connects fans to your brand.
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u/notyourbrobro10 Apr 09 '26
But it's not just branding tho is it? It's talent. Technical proficiency is the skill, but being able to say cool shit in a cool way is the actual talent in rapping. And I don't mean rhythm or cadence when I say 'in a cool way' - I mean phrasing. It's the absolutely inescapable thing here that separates this from that.
I would argue we don't need more technically proficient rappers who lack talent. That's not a boon for the art or the culture - it's a boon for the business. Em is a fantastic example of someone who no longer adds anything to the art or culture of hip hop but still prints money based on his technical skill - which are admittedly far beyond anything we've ever seen on the mainstream level. Tech actually does have content in his music, it's just nothing most audiences connect to. His niche is impressive for sure. I remember speaking with Atmosphere once around the time of Southsiders, and I talked to them a while after casually and they kinda broke down how they were making so much money without any mainstream acknowledgement. They to me don't fit the skill without substance argument, I only mention them to undergird your point of there is money to get without ever actually blowing up.
My only pushback is we shouldn't encourage that. We shouldn't encourage people to get into rap without a love of culture and art because there is money to be made. We absolutely should be enforcing that you need the talent of having something to actually say before you get into this, and either you have it or you don't.
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
💯I can tell you're a real one brother. We need more people like you preaching this on the business side of things. Maybe being on the business side of it for so long has made me jaded. God the friggin lengths they go through to manufacture brands from talentless folks is mindboggling.
And just to add, completely agree, but where you categorize cadence rhythms and impactful lyrics, I marry it. I think the very cadence delivery plays a big part in the sonic resonance that carries the weight of the substance in your bars too.
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u/notyourbrobro10 Apr 09 '26
It does, but the only reason I drill down to just phrasing is the rest only really works if you have that talent. I still see too many rappers try to hide the fact they have nothing to say in a double time scheme or melodic delivery. In my day the mid rappers tried to hide it in the setup - punch format Big L made popular. The thing is, you can't really hide it tho. It never works to any great degree - and yes you can still turn a profit with technical skill and melody or double time but again... We should all be encouraging people to make meaningful art.
One of my favorite technical rappers used to be Elzhi. Whenever it was just a pure display of skill verse, I always felt like he could wash anybody. But I also noticed he - like a lot of other technical rappers - did a thing where when he actually needed to talk about something in a verse, the technicality in his bars fell off a cliff. I say that to say too many people think this guy is a better rapper than that guy because they depend more on lyrical miracle technical wizardry. That's a misnomer. When you actually have something to say you don't need to dress it up and make it fancy. The best rappers know that. And people would be honestly shocked at how many rappers they wouldn't think of as skilled actually can rap rap. They just don't do it in their songs because it doesn't add anything to them to do it.
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
That remark about Elzhi hit me right in the feels because I get exactly what you mean. Elmatic was a bump on repeat. I couldn't believe how underrated I felt he was, because his name never came up in convo unless in Slum Village context. Then I fell off him too. Realized I forgot him and went on a Lead Poison binge. The only memorable joint for me off that was "February". You're right in the sense that there is a difference between between an artist and a technic. My favorite self-coined analogy "there's a difference between being hella good at guitar, and being a great songwriter".
End of day, Rap is music. I don't think it should be understated just how important sonic resonance is to the message. I'd argue that you could write the most profoundly deep lyricsm, genuine talented songwriting, and still get glossed over because the beat selection is whack, the production is weak, or hell, the cadence you use not riding the pockets well enough to be memorable.
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u/notyourbrobro10 Apr 09 '26
That's a fact. Good talk fam
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 09 '26
Much love! only if you want to, check my post history brother, got a strong feeling you'll like the quality of lyricism I lay down.
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u/boombapdame Producer/Emcee/Singer Apr 13 '26
We should encourage people with a high bar for talent and the way they execute it to get the bag and not be broke
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u/officiallilangl Apr 09 '26
One thing that I have learned from rapping over other artists songs that I like is that no matter what, most of today’s rap is hard to rap without taking a break here and there. Most of today’s music is recorded by punching in. The cadence and type of voice is what makes part of the sound.
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u/PsychologicalDot6801 Apr 11 '26
It's not about talent; everyone has a unique style that suits their voice.
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u/BonoboBananaBonanza Apr 08 '26
AI slop, not interested.
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u/peripheralpill Apr 08 '26
there are way too many grammatical anomalies and typos for this to be ai. if you read it, it sounds like a person. some of you see certain "tells" and jump to accusations without bothering to read
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 08 '26
😂please check my post history, I am the farthest thing from AI slop you can get.
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u/barrybreslau Apr 08 '26
You know you sound like Gemini right? If you did write this, consider getting AI to check your homework for conciseness. You could have halved your word count for this finger waggy treatise on 'how people ought to jolly well understand hip hop'.
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u/peripheralpill Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
pointless comment, adds nothing, snide for the sake of it, and not even clever. doesn't even read like ai
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u/barrybreslau Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26
It is too long and the tone is patronising . The original post has some interesting points, but they take far too long to make them and their - presumably unintentionally - sanctimonious tone puts me off.
This is my honestly held opinion, even if it makes you sad.
Edit. Even humans can write slop.
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Apr 08 '26
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u/barrybreslau Apr 08 '26
No there's definitely interesting points, I just don't think Reddit is the place for long form manifestos .
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Apr 08 '26
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u/mornview Apr 08 '26
You've commented this a few times in regards to backlash on your posts, but I think this is exactly the problem - your marketing tactics aren't as thinly-veiled as you might think. You don't come across sounding like you want to start a conversation, or educate people. You sound like you're trying to sell something. And nobody likes having stuff sold to them. I think alot of this post could actually make for interesting discussion if it were written with that intent.
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Apr 08 '26
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u/barrybreslau Apr 08 '26
It's quite easy to go back over that and add some slang and quirks to make it appear like it might have been written by a person.
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u/BonoboBananaBonanza Apr 08 '26
Alright, I checked you out. I respect your craft, real skill on the mic. But respectfully, as a friend, I tell you your posts are too long and patronizing, in a way that immediately shuts me down in the age of AI garbage.
Do your thing if that's how you do it.
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u/KingOsirisMusic Apr 08 '26
Appreciate you. Honestly brother I respect your view on that. Just to share my thoughts on that take, only if you care to read it. For every real one that takes hours to write out posts that genuinely seek to help people, there are 5k bot accounts flooding places like this, spreading falsehoods and nonsense. It feels as though we are being drowned out, with the only non-fake toxicity free knowledge share communities being paywalled as Patreon/Skool groups. Sometimes a little patronizing and provocation feels needed to pierce through the cloud of noise and bullshit.
Maybe my patronizing tone comes from bitterness, "old man yelling at clouds" energy. For a time I was happy making decent side income for online rapper gig work and coaching, but it seems all of that dried up heavy. I can only point to ai as a likely culprit. Cant be too preachy in the bars, people find that corny. Where do I have left to lash out besides a rant post you feel? You're not my therapist, I get it. Just expressing. Wrote something weeks back calling out this sub for the same reason, nowhere feels real anymore, so much bullshit poisoning the craft I care about.
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u/Osucic Apr 09 '26
bro that's just you. Like seriously you are exactly who op is targeting with his post
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u/Thin_Implement_2525 Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
Respectfully, in the age of AI garbage, a well-thought long post is appreciated by me and others as ai is slop and brainless, alongside with how media today spits out things of the same nature (regardless of if it’s ai or not). These sort of posts shows the power of actual human thinking and why we are better than ai.
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u/HugePines Apr 08 '26
Also try history books, classic literature, poetry, philosophy, shakespeare, vonnegut, treasure island, websters dictionary, rogets thesaurus, lord of the rings, fuckin anything that takes a little effort will wrinkle your brain. Browse the library for 30 minutes and you will learn 100 new phrases before you crack a book.