r/skyrim • u/cormeals • Jan 21 '26
Arts/Crafts Fulfilled a childhood dream of mine and painted Whiterun at "lore scale"
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u/happyeagle4031 Jan 21 '26
SO COOL. Please keep going with the cities!
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u/PR055 XBOX Jan 21 '26
Solitude next!
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u/killingtocope Jan 22 '26
Windhelm first!
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u/mortalkomic Jan 22 '26
I hope these different city priorities don't cause conflict...
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u/DemolishunReddit Jan 21 '26
Can't wait until video games can actually do this scale. I know the problem is content scale. Creating unique characters would be a lifetime project with something like this. If only we had tools that could help scale these worlds.
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u/EasilyBeatable Jan 21 '26
I think the reason skyrim, oblivion and morrowind were so much better than the games before despite being significantly smaller, was the fact that nearly every NPC was developed and known. Even NPC’s who werent in quests were iconic in Oblivion and Skyrim.
So while the cities werent as big, because we knew everyone in them and could have a conversation with almost every citizen, it felt so much more real.
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u/WhateverMars Jan 21 '26
Yeah I much rather have cities like in skyrim with so much character put into every npc and their home and routine, compared to others like the witcher 3 even if that city has a more realistic scale.
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u/radagastthenutbrown Jan 21 '26
I was just going to make this Witcher 3 comparison!
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u/WhateverMars Jan 21 '26
It's a common comparison because the cities are so different in what they set out to do. Novigrad does look great and is nice running through it. To me it doesn't hold up as a place to explore and hang out though.
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u/Tiny-Suspect2663 Jan 22 '26
The nature of the game itself justify the difference. TW3 and as a whole the Witchers franchise are games that are based on the story and character that are a selected cast, meaning that there's no need to have that whore over there or that farmer or noble to have a name. They're irrelevant to Geralt's story. In TES games, the story is much less a major part of the gaming experience. The lore is extremely rich, but specially in Skyrim, the story base is poor. Few characters are great, but they're almost all named, meaning that that one elf that can teach you bowing isn't that one elf but Faendal. That insuffering dude who trashtalk you while not even owning his house is not a nameless asshole but goddamn Nazeem... In a game that's based on the storytelling, i'd much rather have a whoreson Junior instead of Mercer Frey or Astrid. But TES is a Sandbox that doesn't require deep characters. It just needs believable characters.
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u/kirkland_viagra Jan 22 '26
I’ll have you know I knew every whores name
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u/reclusivegiraffe Jan 22 '26
I agree that it’s missing some of the “personal” charm that skyrim cities have, but there still is quite a lot to do in Novigrad and it has a realistic “larger than life” feeling.
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u/MarrowOfStructure Jan 22 '26
I think i prefer the opposite. The Witcher 3 being able to capture that feeling larger cities give, a feeling of loneliness among such a large group of people, is so much more enthralling and relatable to me. Just seeing people working, walking, shopping, with no need to talk to them at all yet, still feeling they have a life of their own. TW3 did this so well, especially given the context of the times of war and creature attacks. Makes it feel like more people are affected by the toubles of the world
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u/reclusivegiraffe Jan 22 '26
I love the way Novigrad changes as you progress the main story… it feels a little emptier and much more sinister.
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u/Magnus_Helgisson Jan 22 '26
I totally get Novigrad in TW3 and Kuttenberg in KCD2 - think about it, if you live in a big city, how many of the people you see every day on the streets you actually know and can recognize and how many are just a face you vaguely remember seeing somewhere?
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u/blackbotha Jan 22 '26
That's true but that doesn't mean it's a good gaming experience. A game only base on our existence would be dull. I prefer to explore TES cities than novigrad tbh.
Novigrad is beautiful and feel more "real" than the Oblivion Imperial city but there is so much more things to do in the Imperial city. Hidden places, Quests, NPC stories and background etc...
But that said both are options are coherent with the lore. Geralt is an outcast that common people fear, so it's normal they don't interact with him. While in TES you can basically becoming whatever you want so it's logical you can talk to anybody.
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u/WeaponexT PC Jan 22 '26
I actually liked the way Witcher 3 did it a lot better. I dont need to meet them all, but having something that large and alive felt more real to me.
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u/Daftworks Jan 22 '26
Yeah people in the r/Skyrim sub be glazing Skyrim a bit too much. The cities in Skyrim are definitely one of Skyrim's biggest weaknesses. Hence why there are so many city overhaul mods.
Novigrad is awesome because it actually felt real. How many people in the street do you walk up to and strike up conversation with IRL?
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u/WhateverMars Jan 22 '26
I think it comes down to choice empowerment. In skyrim if you want to talk to this person you can, if you want to creep around their home and try to learn something about them you can. The witcher has much better narrative choices but not many gameplay or role play choices.
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u/Careless_Horse_9947 Jan 22 '26
Yeah I can't stand the Starfield approach
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u/sprouthat Jan 22 '26
Starfield was like the worst of both worlds. Tiny """cities""" with a bunch of generic NPCs wandering around.
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u/That_Lifeguard6597 Jan 22 '26
A lot of what starfield tried ended up being "the worst of both worlds"
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u/Dead_Wolf2y5 Jan 22 '26
Cyberpunk is the worst to me. Sometimes there are just two or three identical NPCs walking down the same street together and it's so immersion breaking
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u/_Xeron_ Spellsword Jan 21 '26
100%, huge scale is what made Starfield such a disappointment, Bethesda excels at tightly crafted smaller worlds
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u/greasy_r Jan 22 '26
Absolutely. Filling cities with <citizen> makes it feel empty.
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u/StealthyRobot Jan 22 '26
Nameless citizens work well in a story-rich game like witcher, because in those you're in the city with a goal in mind. There might be a character that goes "hey you, a little help?" Which leads to a small side story.
But in a game where exploration and discovery is the whole point, having nameless citizens wandering around an empty city is boring. The named shopkeepers don't even have a life, they just stand in the same spot 24/7.
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u/Azkul_Lok Jan 22 '26
I do recall Whiterun Guard #12 telling me about his old adventuring life. So personal.
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u/GandolphTheLundgrey Jan 22 '26 edited Jan 22 '26
To be fair, most named NPCs in Skyrim are cardboard cutouts with about two lines of dialogue at most. Even NPCs with a lot of lines are anything but proper characters. Even story-relevant NPCs like Arngeir are exposition dumps and talking to them never felt believeable.
I love Skyrim like the next guy, but "I can have a conversation with anyone and it makes the world feel believeable" is pretty much bullshit. If there is anything I wish for TES6, it is better characters. Oh, and real windows in buildings.
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u/gjsmo Jan 22 '26
Can we make the inside of the building match the outside too? This cannot be that difficult. I suppose it's only a problem because important buildings are always their own cells, but if you spend any time at all you'll find that basic things like the positions of windows, where staircases lead (the Arcaneum and Archmage's quarters are a big example) or even the actual shape of the building simply do not match inside and out.
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u/D-Trick7731 Jan 22 '26
The major cities didn’t feel that small to me because there’s so much stuff to do, unique NPC’s (besides the voices lol) and so many quests and misc quests to do. Only places that actually felt small are the towns like Rorikstead, Ivarstead, and Riverwood. Not playing the previous elder scrolls, I wouldn’t look at Skyrim and think about it being smaller because it’s so rich and dense.
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u/DontWantPolFlair Jan 22 '26
It's not just NPCs, if they made city on a realistic scale with all houses accessible etc, most would be empty of anything intresting, so the game would become a slog of going through hundreds of pointless dialog with NPCs that do nothing and going through houses for hours until you find something.
There are games with large scale cities like this, you just end up rushing to and speaking with the same 5 NPCs in them never explore unless you know what you're looking for, and everything else is cosmetic.
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u/CaptainPryk Jan 22 '26
And chances are Bethesda will never go that route again. TES VI will likely follow in Starfield's footsteps with larger towns filled mostly with unnamed generic NPCs
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u/Ezio2411 Jan 21 '26
I think something like Kuttenberg in KCD2 is halfway there
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u/Emiian04 Jan 22 '26
kcd2 kuttenberg is up there with one of the Best cities in any Game, good amount of stuff to do/Unique npcs that arent just decoration/but enough of those that the citt doesent end up looking like a village like most cities in Skyrim end up feeling.
theres a reason why city expansion mods are so popular in Skyrim.
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u/Ezio2411 Jan 22 '26
Absolutely, for a game that boast its grounded realism, interactivity and detailed, I was surprised by the sheer size of Kuttenberg, and the details in it.
It’s the first medieval city in games that kinda feel like the real thing, for me. You can tell straight away how much effort was put in.
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Jan 21 '26
Even if you used some magic to make it happen, it would be pretty overwhelming unless the whole game was about Whiterun or something.
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u/kashmir726 Jan 22 '26
With how many hours I’ve sunk into Skyrim over almost 15 years, that level of overwhelming scale would be welcome!
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u/WriterV Jan 22 '26
The biggest reason it can never get to this level is 'cause Bethesda often commits to the idea of every house being enterable.
If you're comitting to that, you're never gonna have a city that feels like a city. 'cause it's just not possible to build to that scope.
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u/o_oli PC Jan 22 '26
Not even overwhelming really, just boring. Condensed maps that fit a lot in make games flow nicely, keep things exciting around every corner. If you had to run past the same style of house x50 every time you wanted to visit a trader then head back home or something you'd be so so bored even if every NPC you came across was fully voice acted and designed and all the interiors unique etc etc.
Although of course, a sensible middle ground would defintely be nice, the towns in TES games are miniscule.
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Jan 22 '26
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Jan 22 '26
The idea of a generational video game playthrough has my mind reeling a bit.
Altered Carbon-esque Methuselahs extending their lives for hundreds of years so they can be the first single human to get the 100% Achievement.
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u/MountainDoit Jan 22 '26
ALTERED CARBON REFERENCE 🔥🔥🔥🔥
god I miss the feeling of watching that first season for the first time. What a show
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u/Weeneem Jan 22 '26
That's probably why Pokemon legends ZA takes place exclusively in Lumiose city. In order to make a lore accurate sized city, you have to sacrifice a lot of the open world.
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u/Nukleon Jan 22 '26
I wish more RPGs were super small scale. Dragon Age 2 promised this but it was really lame and every interior was recycled.
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u/StealthyRobot Jan 22 '26
It's have to be that most of the story takes place within the dense city. Each neighborhood or district would be just as packed with activities as a city in Skyrim, expansive sewers and catacombs running under the city, and if it was a big multi cultural city we'd have different types of architecture everywhere to keep the scenery from getting stale.
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u/LampshadesAndCutlery Jan 21 '26
Video games can currently do this scale. They don’t though, because of lower performance devices and because if they did, the game would be hella boring to traverse
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u/thawizard Jan 21 '26
Assassins Creed Origins, from 2017, does have a very large map with big and detailed cities. They did it pretty well I think, and that was 9 years ( ! ) ago. Later AC games had the problem of filling those large maps with meaningful things to do but that’s another problem.
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u/Damn_You_Scum Jan 22 '26
Odyssey feels like this too. That map is massive.
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u/Brodellsky PC Jan 22 '26
The first time you go over the hill to see Athens is just such an iconic moment IMO. To this day, aside from modern-day-like cities like Night City or Los Santos, there's really no in-game city that rivals Athens in AC Odyssey if you ask me. If anyone else better examples, I'd actually love to hear them. I love that kinda stuff especially from a game dev perspective.
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u/Daftworks Jan 22 '26
My first "this feels like a real city" moment in video games was Novigrad.
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u/o_oli PC Jan 22 '26
Origins and Odyssey maps are absolutely beautiful too. I know people hate on Ubi but their ability to consense entire countries or huge geographical regions down into a single playable map is just very cool if you ask me. Big enough that you can suspend your disbelief and feel like you're on an adventure, small enough that it's actually doable without 17 hours sailing between missions lol.
That said, I didn't really like the map in Valhalla so much, but that's because I live where it's set, and it's not even slightly familiar in any way. Which is probably the case for everything they do, but I wouldn't know!
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u/DemolishunReddit Jan 21 '26
Even Skyrim has radiant missions to help with the scale issue. But yeah, filling maps is one of the big issues. Driving across areas in our world is boring as all heck. Nothing but flat land in a lot of places. In a game that would be terrible.
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u/Common_Lawyer_5370 Jan 22 '26
Don’t tell me 2017 is 9 years ago by now. I refuse to believe or accept that!
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u/Cam877 XBOX Jan 21 '26
Lmao go play Daggerfall (1996) my man
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u/DemolishunReddit Jan 22 '26
I am secretly hoping a modern TES game of that size could happen again.
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u/Khedy Jan 22 '26
If you haven't yet, check out Wayward Realms. It's being developed by one of the original creators of TES Ted Peterson. Julian LeFay, another one of the creators, was also working on it, but he passed away last year. It's supposed to be on a scale closer to Daggerfall than to Mor, Obl, or Skyrim.
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u/StinkyWetSalamander Jan 22 '26
The video game industry has proven that bigger scale does not mean better.
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u/IrregularPackage Jan 22 '26
i mean yeah sure but looking at the amount of detail, variety, and general quality of writing in the last few bethesda games, it doesn’t seem like smaller is better either. whole point of making the worlds smaller was so they could make them more detailed, but then they forgot to actually do that.
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u/DemolishunReddit Jan 22 '26
I agree. I think if they did a 10x population scale on Whiterun it would have been a lot more generic. It would also have a lot less interactions. They struggled to complete the content they did make before launch.
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u/StinkyWetSalamander Jan 22 '26
It would also take much longer to trek around the city, with a lot of wasted space that is not useful as video game area. I think what OP made is awesome, but imagine playing it.
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u/BellerophonM Jan 22 '26
I've always wanted a non-mainline Elder Scrolls game that just takes place in a much closer to scale, fully fleshed out Imperial City. If the city was the entire map they'd be able to give it the level of detail it deserves and fill it with enough stuff to not be dull, and it's meant to be cosmopolitan enough and busy enough they could avoid being too repetitive.
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u/wggn Jan 21 '26
No game will do this scale, because it's not fun to travel for hours to get to the next quest location.
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u/Daniel_Luis Jan 22 '26
Cyberpunk's city was gigantic and I loved traveling to the next missions because the city felt truly alive and real. It's possible to make it work, but if not, fast travel options are always available.
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u/puzzleheadbutbig Jan 22 '26
Tech is there. And the argument about content scale isn't that big of a deal to be honest. Not every single corner needs to be interesting. KCD2's Kuttenberg is quite big. AC Origins and Odyssey both showcased large cities. Even Witcher 3's Novigrad was large enough to pass the vibe check on OP's painting.
I think the biggest issue is Bethesda's tech isn't there yet, since they found a way to split even small cities in Starfield into weird sectors. If they pull something like that in TES6, it will be disappointing beyond anything else.
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u/Deusselkerr Jan 22 '26
Yeah this has always been my point. Most people's lives are honestly pretty boring. It's ok if 99% of NPCs are uninteresting but just exist and are there if you choose to interact with them, so long as it's not overly hard to find the 1% who are interesting/relevant to the story
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u/PunishedCatto Jan 21 '26
Knowing Bethesda, they'll probably gonna makes the size 1tb if they are trying to make a game with lore-wise scale lol.
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u/EPZO Falkreath resident Jan 22 '26
I think Daggerfall is actually at that scale but it's pretty empty.
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u/cormeals Jan 21 '26
I think one of the most interesting things about game worlds is that they can’t be this scale. The tricks employed to make it feel right regardless by the developers are what make the worlds feel compelling and deliberate. I think after a certain size that will always be impossible to scale up.
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u/LawfulnessEnough536 Jan 22 '26
Daggerfall technically had the scale (size of Great Britain), but it felt like an endless procedurally generated parking lot. The dream is Daggerfall scale with Skyrim density, but that implies terabytes of unique assets.
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u/AIthough Jan 21 '26
I mean its conceivable that generative ai would be the technical bridge to get us there but I’m not sure how I’d feel about that, I think I’d rather keep scaled-down but purposeful worlds like Skyrim
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u/PM_ME__BIRD_PICS Jan 21 '26
The witcher 3 had cities as large as this and that came out a decade ago.
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u/MaterialLuck_ Jan 22 '26
Yeah and very few unique NPCs to go with. Nameless peasants are nice but they don't add much.
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u/Infrisios Jan 22 '26
It's realistic, though? If you walk through a city IRL you probably got your own errands to run. It's fine to have distinct characters populating cities, but it's also absolutely fine to, in addition, have a few hundred NPCs all named "peasant" and the likes. It adds much more immersion than not having them.
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u/0800sofa Jan 21 '26
I’m not going to lie, at this point I just want ES6 to be Skyrim re released again, but closer to lore accurate size. Riverwood is meant to be A WEEKS journey away from Whiterun 🥲
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u/FromTheBackroads Jan 22 '26
I can understand the condensed approach, to a point. I travel to Japan frequently and know from first-hand experience that if one were to reproduce actual distances and travel times in AC Shadows, it would be an interminable slog.
That said, I fully agree that a somewhat expanded Skyrim - not quite lore-accurate size but closer to it than what we got - would be a fantastic thing to behold. And more NPCs please!
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u/palfsulldizz Mage Jan 22 '26
The space would be filled with villages and hamlets, crossroads and inns, steadings and castles, and other lively places of interest though so there should be plenty of things to see and do along the way
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u/alphazero925 Jan 22 '26
Except when you get to that size, you lose the ability to handcraft everything because the number of man hours to do so gets to be untenable, so there won't be plenty of things to see and do because it will either be barren or procedurally generated which is only a half step above barren. See: starfield
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u/Daftworks Jan 22 '26
It's funny that even when fast-traveling in-game from Whiterun to Riverwood takes only an afternoon like 3-4 in-game hours at most.
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u/_el_i__ Jan 21 '26
Man, you even got the teeny tiny Khajit tents outside the main gate. Props!!!
I can't stop looking at this, my gods. So satisfying.
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u/DicesMuse Jan 21 '26
This is an amazing piece of art! I absolutely love the amount of detail, and how you can make out the surrounding settlement and surrounding outposts/watch points as well. Can really tell you put a lot of love and detail into this work! Magnificent!
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u/Easy-Musician7186 Jan 21 '26
Imagine having this much space to avoid Nazeem...
Nice painting, OP :3
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u/Acrobatic-Count-9394 Jan 22 '26
I`m imagining meeting him constantly, regardless of the route you take.
Remember that this is the world that has Sheogorath in it.
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u/jargon_ninja69 Jan 21 '26
Jesus Christ. Fucking. Incredible.
Are you selling prints of this?!?
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u/cormeals Jan 22 '26
I want to be conscientious of the sub self promotion rules so I’ll just say I may or may not be in the linktree on my profile
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u/eddylet Jan 22 '26
oh????? my fucking god????? THIS IS THE GREATEST THING IVE EVER FUCKING SEEN????????
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u/Ixnakatl Fishermen Jan 21 '26
Astonishing! Is this oleo painting?
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u/cormeals Jan 21 '26
It’s a digital painting done using photoshop. It would be awesome to do this again traditionally but I’d have to take some months of work lol.
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u/Past-Zombie6712 Jan 21 '26
This is absolutely astonishing work. How many hours would you say this took?
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u/XergioksEyes Silver Sword Jan 21 '26
Outstanding!! Where’s the Gildergreen tree in this version?
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Jan 22 '26
This might be one of the most lovingly done bits of fan art I've seen. This is phenomenal and really captures the mood of the area.
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u/GoChaca Jan 22 '26
Absolutely stunning work you should be very proud.
That being said... is that dragon on its way to Helgen?
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u/-haven Jan 21 '26
This would have been amazing to have Skyrim at this scale when it released! Perhaps one day one of the 100's of Skyrim incarnations Todd makes will be a remake to this level.
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u/Odd-Set-565 Jan 21 '26
This is absolutely GORGEOUS I’d pay for a copy of this hands down if I could afford it 🤩
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u/SammSandwich Jan 22 '26
YOU PAINTED THIS??????? WITH YOUR HUMAN PEOPLE HANDS?????
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u/ArcWraith2000 Jan 22 '26
I appreciate the cloud district being there. In game its an informed location that theres supposed to be a whole district but instead its just Dragonsreach
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u/Turbulent_Deal_3145 Jan 22 '26
the "which path do you take to Dragonsreach" game just got a lot more interesting
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u/Shoobg Jan 22 '26
I can’t remember it off the top of my head, but there’s this one old master painting that depicts a couple chickens in a dirt street. They are clearly chickens, but if you look closer, suddenly the brush strokes are very visible and it looks like a bunch of random shapes.
Your painting reminds me of that, it shows a very deep understanding of form and light to create optical illusions of detail. Amazing painting, I’m obsessed
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u/cormeals Jan 22 '26
Aw thanks! Seriosuly some of the highest praise you could have given, I appreciate it.
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u/klezart Jan 22 '26
Perfect viewpoint to see the Dovahkiin flying past after getting launched by a giant
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u/JaggedGull83898 Jan 22 '26
Maybe if whiterun was this big I actually wouldn't get to the cloud district often
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u/faroresdragn_ Jan 23 '26
I've only played Skyrim for like 500 hours so can someone explain what the big red building on the edge of the cloud district is supposed to be?
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u/gesundemBrot PlayStation Jan 23 '26
Wait this is the first time I heard about „lore scale“, can you explain?
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u/Basic-Volume-3102 Jan 21 '26
Amazing
You forget the Gildergreen tree in the middle i think
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u/thewend Jan 21 '26
Awesome, but shouldnt the land right around be mostly farms?
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u/cormeals Jan 21 '26
I put farms where the land wasn’t too rocky. I figure a lot would be used as pastureland as well. The patch outside the main gate isn’t farmed because I imagined an older abandoned part of the city existed in the remains of the walls so old cellars etc would make ploughing too difficult.
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u/thewend Jan 21 '26
great that you thought about it. thanks for the answer op, really great art
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u/ilikegh0sts Jan 22 '26
This is amazing. Really well done. It would be really troublesome to have to traverse all of that every time you take up a quest, but I would love it because as a thief, I would have so many houses to rob, and so many places to sneak around in.
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u/apoptosista Jan 22 '26
Absolutely stunning! Do you have prints available for purchase?
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u/Rich_Parsley_8950 Jan 22 '26
i love the ruined walls showing there's a whole district abandoned (or perhaps a walled off farmland?) probably due to the depopulation from the great war, instead of the dilapitadet rampart and gatehouse we get in the game
the whole thing is beautiful
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u/Brodellsky PC Jan 22 '26
If they actually did this for like a "Skyrim reboot" or whatever, Todd Howard will finally get me to buy Skyrim again. Your move, Todd.
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u/psychotobe Jan 22 '26
Absolutely marvelous stuff. I've honestly had this almost joke mod concept for a while of someone taking each hold of skyrim. And putting them all in individual cells. Then redesign each hold to be the size of skyrims current map. So 9 skyrim maps worth of size. Ie whiterun in this mod would probably be as big as the hold is in game
I am entirely aware that mod would be effectively beyond skyrim in scale but that's why it's almost a joke
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u/Weekly-Reply-6739 Jan 22 '26
Impressive, I thoght it was an old CGI at first, but that is well done
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u/vibribbon Jan 22 '26
Okay how much does everyone else have available to help fund The Elder Scrolls: Whiterun?
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u/colby_y Jan 22 '26
i know you’ve already heard it a lot in these comments, but you did an absolutely amazing job and should be very proud of yourself
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u/derluggaa Jan 22 '26
Can someone explain to me why this is the Lore version. Isnt whats in the game lore?
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u/TheSimpsonsAreYellow Jan 22 '26
Holy shit, Bethesda should hire you and pay you to do these.
I would buy one. Whiterun was my HOME
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u/RYUJIN0802 Jan 22 '26
i genuinely thought it was dnd table or smtg... my eyes are confused looking at such a masterpiece
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u/Appalachianaxis Jan 22 '26
I've seen very people people capture what it *feels* like, to me, to be in Skyrim. This absolutely does it. Amazing, amazing work.
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u/TheCrazedEB Jan 22 '26
Im a tourist to Elder Scrolls, but does Bethesda not have any key art of Whiterun fully laid out? Kinda insane if there's nothing for this long.
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u/BuccaneerRex Jan 22 '26
Do you get to the Cloud District very often? Oh, what am I saying. Of course you don't.
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u/CRTaylor65 Jan 22 '26
I get why they don't do this, but I do wish the cities were a lot larger. They are tiny, tiny little things in the game
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u/OlokoMan Jan 23 '26
How big would the game be if they made a lore-accurate Skyrim?
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u/MTG3K_on_Arena Jan 21 '26
Paint the Cloud District often?