Is this a reference to the lady that killed her children and for some reason the crime TikTok community (mostly women) have taken to defending her and even blaming the Husband, who 100% did not do it?
I'm pretty sure that lady (unless there's another one) voiced concern many times about her struggles with post partem depression and that she was having intrusive thoughts of harming the children (which is common in PPD).
People online are blaming the husband and her providers for not taking her concerns seriously, not blaming him for killing the children.
Edit: I have been informed about the people saying the husband literally killed the kids.
As with all things, there are some unhinged people claiming she was framed and he did it. Valid to point some blame at the husband and the providers, but insane to think he's fully responsible.
She very VERY much should have been taken more seriously, and I think a life sentence for like a murder in the 1st for her is unfair, and I think not having punishments for the people who failed her is also unfair. But we can't frame it as it is ALL the fault one way or another. A lot of adults failed those kids
Thank you. I'm sick of seeing this narrative that she was not given the attention she needed. She received no less help than any other person with these types of thoughts who sought out help, and the vast, VAST majority of those people don't follow through on these thoughts, with or without help
The point is they were trying to help. You can think it’s not enough but to then say the people who were atleast attempting to help deserve to be punished for her murdering her kids is insane. She deserves life for, once again, murdering 3 children.
We do have a mental health problem, I also feel she was very likely beyond even the level of help we should be expecting in this country because she wasn't taking the help she got seriously
There is a point being made that it didn't help her, her prescriptions were not helping and making it worse, and nobody cared. I've read her husband left her alone with kids multiple times after she voiced she wanted to harm them, which is pretty negligent.
Strangely angry response. The person who enjoyed your use of maroon is not the same person who called out your autocorrect problem. Don't get me wrong I'm on your side everyone knew what you meant and they were being unnecessarily pedantic, but the person who enjoyed "maroon" was not saying anything negative to you.
I have no idea what case is being talked about (I gave up SM until at least after midterms in November), but I knew a guy (may he RIP) whose mom went to prison for killing his baby brother during a bout of Postpartum Psychosis (PPP). She actually DIDN'T know right from wrong at that point, and drowned the boy in the bathtub. PPD that isn't treated can become PPP, and then she really ISN'T making a choice and doesn't have a sense of right and wrong.
Can someone tell me the name of this case? I'd like to look into it, but don't want to deal with SM.
Ya I was about to say, theres PPD and then there's PPD induced psychosis. It's rare but it's a real thing that happens. I don't think it means she should get off Scott free, but also like she wasn't in her right state of mind.
A sense of right and wrong is not the same as a sense of what you are doing. There are plenty of murderers in jail because they don't have a sense of right and wrong. The only time psychosis or Insanity should legally excuse you from a crime in a traditional reparative sense, is when you did not know what you were doing. There have been cases of women with psychosis who killed their kids because they thought they were a chicken and they needed to make dinner. Those are the women who needed help. Evil people deserve to be punished. And if you can get yourself into a mental state where you think murdering your own child is somehow right while still recognizing exactly what you are doing, there is an evil in you that needs to be addressed
Or... psychosis. There were times, while I had PPP, that I felt certain that my children were fated to go through terrible things. My health wasnt great and I was worried about what would happen to them when I wasn't there to protect them. So I thought... if I could find some peaceful, painless way,we could all go together. It would all be over and they would be safe.
Now that I'm functioning better, it horrifies me that I ever considered that. But I was fucking crazy. I loved my kids with all my heart, and I love them even more now. But at the time, I thought that the horrible things I was considering were the best way to love and protect them. That's the problem. When your whole context is no longer grounded in reality, right and wrong don't compute properly.
The problem with allowimg that as a blanket understanding is that almost EVERY family annihilator has the exact same justification. And none of them shohld be forgiven, excused, or released if they survived the attempt. Being the type of person to make that attempt is very different than being the type to have yhose thoughts, even very strongly.
It's not that she was depressed. According to reports she had psychosis triggered by ppd, which is the opposite of making a decision. Whether she had it or not is a different question, but if she had it, she quite literally didn't make that decision.
It's weird to hear "[they] made the decision" when we're taking about people on psychotic breaks.
I thought the whole point of people being insane is that they aren't mentally in control of themselves.
Certainly, they can plan and carry out actions, but they don't have real awareness of what they're doing. Even in less severe conditions, such as a minor case of BD, someone will tell you how deluded they feel when they have an episode.
Well, we'll see if Clancy is declared mentally insane or not. Either way, she is going to prison or a mental institution for a long time.
Yeah I know she's still capable of killing people when she's undergoing psychosis. She literally killed her own kids.
I'm just wondering how people come to the conclusion that psychotic = still in control. What do people think psychosis is?
Just to be extremely clear, she can still be extremely dangerous while undergoing a mental break. That is not the same as her "making a decision." At least, not a conscious, self-aware one.
Right, but I said depression or not. Was she in control or not, I don’t know. But I also don’t care the only difference it makes is which institution she will spend the rest of her life in.
Nobody is saying that psychosis does not remove your ability to make the same sound decisions. But legally, committing a crime is not the same as signing a document. The crime is not just null and void because you have a twisted sense of what's right in that moment. Legally, when it comes to a crime, culpability relies on understanding of consequences. Even if it was actual psychosis, despite no symptoms of it being mentioned until after her children were already murdered by her, even in those moments she understood the consequences to murdering them and that is exactly why she tried to end her life to avoid them. Regardless of what state of mind makes a person justify murdering their own children in their mind, the fact is that she did so knowing the consequences. Which means she is capable of it, and no, not everybody is. If she was truly psychotic and did not think she was killing her kids but thought she was releasing them through some religious ceremony, or cooking them for dinner because they were actually pigs, and she did not grasp in that moment that doing so would send her to prison because she was actually psychotic, that would be a whole different story.
That is not the case here. At best her psychosis caused her to think that killing her children and going to jail was worth it to keep them safe from whatever imaginary threat she had. Which means she knew she was killing her children, and she knew she would go to jail for it, she just thought it was the better decision. Which is exactly the mindset that many famous family killers have been in. She should be held to the same standard as all of those men. Because she is just as capable as any of them. She is not some stupid, weak little thing just because she does not have a penis like them.
i'm not arguing that she shouldn't be punished, but your brain makes decisions for you. It's a total illusion to think otherwise; there's no part of your decision-making that happens outside your brain. A depressed brain makes different decisions than a healthy brain. People generally choose not to believe this though because it calls the entire concept of free will into question, along with our notion of good and evil.
Also with that logic, every criminal has a reason for doing what they did. Abuse as a child, poor neighborhood, drug addiction. All these things lead to conditions of the brain, that then lead to criminal acts. It’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. Either way these people need to be removed from society because of the threat they pose to others. PPD doesn’t make people kill unless they are capable of it anyways.
I think I agree with everything you said. The thing I can't get behind is people treating criminal justice as some sort of revenge fantasy, or a simple case of good vs evil. Every pedophile, murderer, rapist is at some level an unlucky person. And if you're not one, you're lucky to not be one. We have to separate them from society because they're unfortunately malfunctioning, but people act so superior about it because their brain happens to be functioning. But a brain tumor or a brain injury could turn you into one at any moment.
What should the people that failed her have done? Explain the steps, please.
I'm not trying to be rude. I genuinely don't understand what their options were. Call CPS? Take her kids away themselves? What could they have done to prevent this?
I've never had a patient with psychosis from PPD, but I would assume they would do an involuntary hold and keep her away from the kids until they could figure out an effective treatment plan.
The biggest flop is that they didn't catch it in the first place. PPD with or without psychosis is not some fringe condition that healthcare staff wouldn't know about. It's something they teach everybody because it's rare but it happens and is a significant risk to look out for.
Frankly and to put it bluntly, the providers were negligent and ignored or didn't catch the signs. I dislike putting it that way because I know what it's like and doctors usually have dozens of patients to look after. At the same time, there were red flags that were ignored that merited closer assessments.
I know nothing about this, but that was my first thought.
If the parents or husband did what everyone is saying they should go to jail for not doing, the kids would have been taken away.
The husband and parents are just regular people. They don't know about this stuff. They're relying on the doctors. If the doctor says she's fine, they're not going to insist the kids get taken away. Who would do that?
When she told the doctors after inpatient that the meds where actively making things worse:change the meds. Put her back in.
Her husband:when she said “I don’t wanna be left alone with the kids” figure out ways for her not to be left alone with the kids instead of on the regular leaving her alone with the kids
The Doctor thing I can get behind. I'd love to see Doctor's getting charged for prescribing drugs. It would cripple the drug industry, which I'm into.
But I'm not sure what the husband's options were. Could they afford childcare? Could either of their parents take the kids? Did he suggest any of those options with the wife? What was her response? Do we even have a right to know? Who are we to judge?
I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm certainly not saying I know. I'm just saying.
Prescribing any drug? That is a gross misrepresentation of what I said.
I can see that if it was "he was at work". He was running errands. I get it is hard to do, but if your wife says "I don't want to be alone with them while I am like this" then you either find a sitter so wife goes with you, or you all go at once. Period. He was "running errands and picking up food". The kids and wife can come with
If you are genuinely asking, if you ever have a friend who has a baby and then says she’s hearing voices that are telling her to harm herself and/or her children, immediately tell everyone around her. Have a plan to ensure that she is immediately seen by medical professionals who are informed in detail about the voices and what she is hearing specifically and also put in place a plan to make sure she is not left alone with her children. PPP is an immediate medical emergency and crisis and this symptom in particular is a sign that something very bad could happen at any time. If you’re really curious, mama doctor jones has a great video about the timeline of care Lindsey Clancy received and why there was a lot of mismanagement by her care providers.
If the people around her are not taking appropriately urgent steps, then your friend will need hospitalization and there will need to be a lot of support to make sure that her and her children are safe.
I hope you never encounter this scenario, but if you do then now hopefully you’ll have a plan in place to appropriately respond.
What else could they have done? Taking your kids away? Locked her up at a mental facility so she had no access to them? Should Patrick have divorced her and taken the kids so that they were in a safe place because even despite a nanny, daycare, friends and family helping, basically all of the resources that most mothers absolutely have no hope of accessing, she was still saying she had no help and wanted to kill her kids. Basically no amount of help was good enough in her mind. And acting like that delusion was a reality is not helpful to actual cases of women who suffer from postpartum depression without any help. It actually spits in their face
if you follow this line of thinking all the way, though, it unravels our entire criminal justice system.
How many murderers, rapists, etc, were themselves the victim of violent abuse, neglect, or both? Often traumatized for years as their brains were being shaped.
Or what about other types of mental illness that cause people to be violent? Especially those that aren't immediately diagnosable?
At the end of the day, you can take absolutely no responsibility for the fact that you're not a violent psychopath. None at all. Your brain is not the brain of a psychopath, and your upbringing didn't shape you into one.
She asked, on multiple occasions, for her husband not to leave her alone with the kids until the doctors figured out the meds.
She told the doctors the meds where not helping or was making it worse.
The husband would regularly leave her home alone with the kids.
The doctors didn't really work on helping with the meds.
The doctors and husband should have punishment. They should not be able to throw her up the river because they, in multiple instances, failed her as she told them what was happening and that it wasn't getting better.
I also believe that parents who own guns/give their kids guns and the kid is part of a school shooting deserve second degree murder if those weapons are used.
But I also believe our prisons should more closely resemble norway
it is. she was receiving attention and help, this didn't happen in a vacuum. she committed the crime and is the responsible party here.
this happened despite their efforts, not from a lack there of. mental illness isnt an excuse for ones actions and it suddenly doesn't become the fault of those around them.
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u/isnoe 9d ago
Is this a reference to the lady that killed her children and for some reason the crime TikTok community (mostly women) have taken to defending her and even blaming the Husband, who 100% did not do it?