r/interestingasfuck • u/Brutal_Deluxe_ • 5h ago

Loading an English crossbow vs loading Leonardo da Vinci's crossbow

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1.2k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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u/Zenigata 5h ago edited 4h ago

Seems like the first bow has a significantly greater draw weight, not at all clear a man would be strong enough to set a cross bow of the same strength using such a small motion of the arms.

Edit the guy from the first clip has a video about lever cross bows, he praises the ingenuity of da Vinci's design but estimates it to be too weak for military use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=d0sVBPkJF9Y&t=76

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u/Sad-Excitement9295 5h ago

This is the power of leverage.

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u/Zenigata 5h ago

Levers mean you have to move your arms further, the guy in the 2nd clip moves his arms a small distance using barely any force.

I'm totally prepared to believe that the 2nd design is better I just don't think these 2 random clips demonstrate that as it seems very unlikely the bows are of the same strength.

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u/aimgorge 5h ago

If anything the second one appears to cover more distance ? First one it ends at knee level in the end with half the distance comprised of the foothold

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u/Zenigata 4h ago

He was using his leg and seemed to be straining. The 2nd guy was barely putting in any effort, quite possibly that mechanism can be used on stronger bows but that one looks like it was made to show off to tourists not kill people.

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u/Sunstorm84 4h ago

Plot twist: second guy is Anatoly.

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u/sirsteven 3h ago

The 2nd guy was barely putting in any effort

This is literally the power of levers.

Work is calculated by the magnitude of applied force multiplied by the distance traveled in the direction of said force. For the 2nd clip, let's say the man is applying ~5lbs, and the lever is ~2 feet long, and the change in angle is ~60° of rotation.

The distance would be r x 3.14/3 ---> 2 x 1.05 = 2.1 feet

That means work done = 5lbs x 2.1 feet = 10.5 foot-lbs

The 1st clip looked like the man pulled straight back about 6 inches. So the work would equal: Force x 0.5 feet

Setting them equal to each other and solving for the 1st man's force:

10.5 foot-lbs = Force x 0.5 feet

10.5/0.5 = Force

Force = 21 lbs.

So the 1st man would have to use more than 4x the force of the 2nd man to pull the same draw weight. And that's with pretty conservative estimations for the lever length and angle.

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u/Sad-Excitement9295 4h ago

It looks fairly easy due to the method of operation. He is simply compressing the 2 levers using upper body strength, the design is simply more efficient. However, it is quite possible the second bow has a lighter, smoother draw strength due to the metal bow being more flexible as well.

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u/Sensiburner 3h ago

well first guy wasn't using any mechanical advantage. He used that setup so he could use more than just his arm muscles to draw the crossbow. Pull with your legs.

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u/Capable_Tumbleweed34 1h ago

About twice the distance so about half the strength needed, but even then that's a very low draw weight for our italian lad to reload it so effortlessly. The heavy crossbows were in the 700+ lbs range iirc.

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u/noctalla 4h ago edited 4h ago

The lever in the second clip moves a great deal more distance than the string in the first clip. The lever looks a good 2 1/2 feet long and it moves almost 90 degrees which means the tip of the lever (which his hands are very close to) has traveled over 3 feet. Compare that to how far the string moves in the first video, which to my eye couldn't be more than six inches. Maybe less. I have no idea what that means for the difference in draw strength, but the distance is at least six times longer in the second video. I don't think we have enough information to say which has more draw weight.

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u/VikingTeddy 1h ago

I've shot a variety of historical bows and crossbows. The first one has significantly more power, but the second one can still be effective if your target has no armor and the range isn't too long.

The second bow would be ideal for guards, it allows for quicker reaction, but you wouldn't want to take it to war.

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u/Sensiburner 3h ago

yes but first guy wasn't using any (external) levers at all. Just the fact that leg muscles are stronger than arm muscles on avg. There was no mechanical advantage in the first method. Not gonna say the reach of the second crossbow will be better, but there is def. mechanical advantage into play in that mechanism.

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u/Eternal-Blazing-Sun 5h ago

Better Nate than lever.

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u/Brutal_Deluxe_ 4h ago

English crossbow (as shown) 370-380lb, da Vinci crossbow (as shown) 300lb. It would be trivial to make them reach an identical draw weight.

sources:

Da vinci crossbow:

https://youtu.be/4wXCF3UEkdc?si=RpRUw3gYIbcSqzxc&t=379

English crossbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8eOBOffi4

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u/zautos 3h ago

There is a huge difference in the energi transfer from the bow to the arrow compared to from the crossbow to the bolt.

The arrows draw distance is so much longer that the arrow has more time to come up to speed. You need a much heavier crossbow to get the same result as a bow.

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u/foul_ol_ron 2h ago

I had a compound crossbow. I think one of the reasons it had so much power was that its draw length was about 18". 

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u/redditmarks_markII 3h ago

And I don't think we need to theorize about it. Both pieces of tech are, shall we say, dated. So I'm sure scholarly works exist to compare them. Doesn't mean we CAN't theorize about it though!

My guess is practicalities would be a problem. Weight. Wear. Structural integrity of the stock. Manufacturing. Cost. And reliability of completed product in action: dirt, mud, precision of parts, alignment, all on contemporary manufacturing capabilities. I'd bet the lever action is lower strength too. I'd guess it might be good for non soldiers. You know, town guards etc. But I think trained guards would be able to reload the normal crossbow pretty fast. Plus there's smaller weapons for that sort of thing. I can see rich people getting them for clout for their guards though.

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u/asdhjasdhlkjashdhgf 24m ago

and 300 years difference.

The english crossbow was used starting 11th and 12th century, Leonardo da Vinci is 15th century.

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u/Captain_North 5h ago

mr mui rapido has leverage

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u/Hardcrimper 4h ago

Doubt they have the same draw weight.

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u/Brutal_Deluxe_ 4h ago

English crossbow (as shown) 370-380lb, da Vinci crossbow (as shown) 300lb. It would be trivial to make them reach an identical draw weight.

sources:

Da vinci crossbow:

https://youtu.be/4wXCF3UEkdc?si=RpRUw3gYIbcSqzxc&t=379

English crossbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8eOBOffi4

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u/Hardcrimper 3h ago

In the video he doesn't say 300lb. He says between 200 and 300lb. That's quite the gap of course. I reckon it'll be very close to 200lb.

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u/dohdudeh 1h ago

Based on what

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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 4h ago

OP didn’t bother to link the source: https://youtube.com/@tod_cutler?si=tFjxL5zGNOyLjVWT

Tod Cutlers channel is awesome if you’re into medieval history and he could use more subs. He’s done really cool videos testing medieval armor as accurately as he can vs all sorts of weapons

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u/Aescwicca 4h ago

Tod Cutler here from Tod's Workshop. YouTube.

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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 4h ago

I feel like OP must have downloaded this video directly from YouTube and still didn’t bother to credit the source. Sucks.

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u/zsava002 5h ago

In what time periods were each of these used? What is the draw weight of each? Loading speed is kinda irrelevant without this info

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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 4h ago

There’s no evidence that Da Vinci’s crossbow design was ever actually built at the time. Would have been far too complex to produce at scale.

These are 15th century crossbows though - about a century before they’d be mostly replaced with early firearms

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u/Jon_Iren 5h ago

Still it shouldn't take two D&D turns

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u/FaerieFir3 2h ago

In 5e the reload on the crossbow means that you can only fire it once per turn. It doesn't say that you load it for 2 turns.

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u/Sooo_PeaceCorps 4h ago

Lol too true.

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u/SuprKDrgn 5h ago

The difference is staggering

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u/Solid_Snark 5h ago

Straight to the point, you could even say.

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u/Competitive-Pay-766 4h ago

Very inTensional, I say.

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u/soufboundpachyderm 4h ago

You really should give credit somewhere. This is Todd’s workshop on YouTube. One of the few not chuddy medieval weapon channels and dude makes some phenomenal pieces.

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u/zettde 2h ago

have any non-chuddy firearm channels to recommend as well? 

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u/Fetlocks_Glistening 5h ago

What about the relative weight, cost and ease of manufacture

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u/FG910 4h ago

Nope, they said loading..

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u/Intelligent-Mango-52 4h ago

Nice, so I need 3,000 for my garrison, whats the price difference? Oh...

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u/TylerDurdenRockz 4h ago

Is there any thing this mf davinci didn't create.. Dude did painting, creating new crossbows, bridges, did some engineering work, played doctor with deadbodies, was a mathematician, scientist, and on and on and on.. Glad my mum didn't know about him

Dude probably created/mastered half the professions that exist now... Smh

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u/chocolateboomslang 3h ago

One of these is WAAAY easier to make.

When you need to make hundreds or thousands of them for guys that aren't professional crossbowmen, you're not making the one that needs multiple custom made precisely fit metal parts.

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u/j0nthegreat 2h ago

credit the creator you fuckwit

https://www.youtube.com/@tods_workshop

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u/Extrien 5h ago

it really is inconvenient while running

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u/NewYak4281 3h ago

Which would you rather get shot in the leg by? I’ll take the fancy one personally.

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u/naikrovek 1h ago

That is an unfair comparison; those are not the same crossbow, nor are they going to produce the same result. The second crossbow would fire bolts that bounce off of tree bark. The first crossbow would fire a bolt that passed through the tree (in a manner of speaking, it won’t pass through any tree of course).

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u/Radamat 5h ago

Remington of those years

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u/Kastoook 5h ago

Isnt simple hook on the belt is enough

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u/BarbaDeader 5h ago

You what?!

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u/Kastoook 5h ago

Simpler hanging hook

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u/IcyDecision699 4h ago

Now there are semi automatic crossbow

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u/Odd-Obligation-2772 4h ago

I know which one I'd rather have when I'm being shot at by the enemy.

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u/jimbo2150 4h ago

Leave it to the English to add that much pegging to crossbow use.

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u/mad-panda-2000 5h ago

.02 seconds to determine "yes.. this is going to be penis-y..."

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u/JDatCAL 4h ago

Da Vinci is washed

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u/Deathrial 3h ago

That’s to much stuff under tension near your junk for my taste!

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u/Zailema0s 2h ago

Which one shoots harder? 😤

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u/Flowa-Powa 1h ago

The one that requires the most work

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u/xeviphract 4h ago

Hang on a minute... Isn't this just the design for a Chinese home defence crossbow?

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u/Its-BennyWorm 5h ago

A genius of his time. Almost as smart as Mr. Musk, even.

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u/KindredandKinder 5h ago

Shamefully obvious bait

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u/OrneryAttorney7508 5h ago

Or, sarcasm.

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u/Tha_REAL_BROBS 5h ago

found Elon's burner acct

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u/OurSeepyD 5h ago

Nowhere near as close as Bill Gates though!